Posts by Cold Steel

20

Why do Christians want to be part of a religion that Jesus did not endorse?

by AK - Jeff in

he was a martyr.

he had wonderful moral teaching [if we can attribute it to him honestly].

he drew a crowd.. could have said any of that about ghandi.

Cold Steel

When Jesus lived, he just didn't teach, he ordained others and called them to be apostles ("sent ones") to the nations. He said that the only way to the Father was through him. He established a church and ordinances. Ghandi didn't. "He who believeth on me, though he be dead, yet shall he live," the Lord said. As time passed, the apostles were killed and driven from city to city. The church was corrupted and inculated with secularism and rhetoric. Then the Lord decided to start his church anew, this time through a publishing company that printed Bibles and tracts...well...that's the way the JWs see it, anyhow. Still, Jesus was a religious figure and met all the critieria of the Jewish Messiah, except the military aspect. Upon his return, he is expected to fulfill that aspect, too.

5

Animals, the Resurrection and the Future

by Cold Steel in

since jehovah's witnesses reject the notion the idea that human beings are spirits, what is the general thought in the community regarding animals?

are they considered intelligent?

if so, are they covered under christ's eternal atonement?.

Cold Steel

I feel the same way about my cat. I recall the TWILIGHT ZONE episode about the old country guy who died with his dog, and they both headed down the long road together. The first gate they came to claimed to be heaven, but the dawg wasn't allowed inside. Then the man noticed the smoke blowing from around the bend. The dawg went crazy and urged the man on, and they eventually found heaven. There are similar mythological stories that are very similar.

One of the thing that's always been interesting about the Witnesses is their inistance that all books of scripture are equal (as if each word was dictated by God). Thus, Ecclesiastes, a philosophical work, has the same weight as more positive eschatological works. Since Adam was slated to live forever, does the atonement simply mean that we'll be restored to what we were before the fall, nothing more or less? In other words, what is the "new system" going to be comprised of?

Also, what is the relation of the creation of the Earth and the creation of the Universe? Were they created together, or did the Universe exist beforehand? Many Christian sects believe in creation from nothing, and I assume the JWs believe the same. Jehovah is God and He created the angels, the first angel being Michael (Jesus). Before all this, I suppose we can assume that Jehovah existed all alone. One wonders what He did during all those quazillions of years when nothing (but Him) existed. Being the same "unchangable" God, what was it that suddenly caused Jehovah to decide to create?

Another question on time is why God would need seven periods to create when He could just speak the word and it would all come into being instantly? All religions have this problem to some degree or another, but ever since William Miller, some religions have boxed themselves in more than others. Catholics believe in the miraculous transubstantiation of the Eucharist, which can neither be seen, felt, tasted, smelled or felt, yet it's a "miracle" that occurs each time the emblems are blessed. Christ, according to the Witnesses, did something in 1914, though there is nothing at all that would indicate it other than opinions. No scriptures, no visions, no holy writ. It just happened.

5

Animals, the Resurrection and the Future

by Cold Steel in

since jehovah's witnesses reject the notion the idea that human beings are spirits, what is the general thought in the community regarding animals?

are they considered intelligent?

if so, are they covered under christ's eternal atonement?.

Cold Steel

Since Jehovah's Witnesses reject the notion the idea that human beings are spirits, what is the general thought in the community regarding animals? Are they considered intelligent? If so, are they covered under Christ's eternal atonement?

When men are resurrected, do they return to what Adam and Eve were, and placed in a garden paradise forever? If so, there must be animals. But they might be new animals, animals that have never before lived. What about that?

What, too, of the future? How long can man live in a paradise without being bored out of his collective mind? Will we build space ships and visit the stars?

I've never heard anything concerning this and other questions. Has God ever created anything before He created man? Did He create the world in seven 24-hour days or are we to understand "days" are "eras"? And why did God create man a little below God Himself (elohim) if for all intents and purposes, angels have more power (such as the power to move from one place to another by mere thought)?

When one considers the JW universe, how is it to be interpreted? We earthbound mortals used to believe in one galaxy until we discovered we were one of millions and millions of galaxies, each with billions of stars. Is man God's first creation or has He done this before?

Those of us who have animals as pets know each has his and her own dispostion and quirks. Some of the early Christian fathers thought of them as mere autotrons, creatures who in every respect mimick life, yet are devoid of intelligence or wholly incapable of suffering or love. Anyone who's ever had a cat or a dog knows animals can love, get embarrassed, feel jelousy and suffer. But what do the JWs have to say about this? When our pets pass on, it that all there is for them?

Even if you're not a JW, what are your views? Do animals have spirits? Are there other worlds? What are your views on the world to come (if there is one)? But I'm more interested to hear what JWs have to say or hear what they believe.

Thanks!

74

I'm Still Torn About the Blood Issue

by palmtree67 in

when i left the org.

the blood issue wasn't an issue for me.

my best friend was on the blood committee for years and i could see many cases where either blood wouldn't have saved the person anyways (like when a person is in a serious car accident and their liver is in pieces), or blood actually killed the person and/or hindered recovery.. then my little nephew got leukemia.

Cold Steel

Blood is also biblically symbolic of corruption. In the scriptures we read that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven; however, when Jesus was resurrected, he was resurrected as flesh and bone. He was not still living, neither was he a spirit. "Touch me," he said. "Handle me and see. A spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have."

The Watchtower Society argues that this body was fabricated, and that it wasn't what Jesus was; merely a representation of what he had become. But elsewhere in the scripture we read that all men will be resurrected in the same way and in the same form. There will be no resurrected spirits, neither will Jesus ever be a spirit again. When he appears to the Jews on the Mount of Olives, one will say to him, "What are these wounds in thy hands (and feet)?" And he will reply, "These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends." That's why Zachariah says a cry of lamentation will go up throughout the land. At that moment the Jews will know that their fathers slew the Messiah, and thus the Jewish nation will be converted overnight.

Blood is the corruption. Even urine is generally sterile until it exits the human body. Only then does it begin to acquire and grow bacteria. But blood can be corrupt while it runs in the veins. Alas, so can other parts of the body. We're all subject to death and corruption, and blood flows throughout our whole systems and yes, it represents life and, shed, it represents death. Christ's blood was shed for man, and only Jesus could offer up a sacrifice for sin that covers all people, and all living things. I suppose in the resurrection, it will be spirit that courses through our veins, for then we will be without death and without corruption.

74

I'm Still Torn About the Blood Issue

by palmtree67 in

when i left the org.

the blood issue wasn't an issue for me.

my best friend was on the blood committee for years and i could see many cases where either blood wouldn't have saved the person anyways (like when a person is in a serious car accident and their liver is in pieces), or blood actually killed the person and/or hindered recovery.. then my little nephew got leukemia.

Cold Steel

Having worked for NIH and getting to know the blood people over there very well, I can tell you people are saved every day by blood transfusions and blood components. I'd have no problems taking blood for surgery or the components, though like everything there is a risk. If you accept a transplant of anything, you run the risk of biological incompatibilities and virul transmission. The Lord, in his wisdom, commanded man that he should not drink the blood of man or beast. I don't eat blood pies and even cringe at blood oranges! The consumption of blood food products is an abomination to me and most Christians (and Jews), but the use of blood in medicine is totally different. People die with flu shots, and they can have complications from dental procedures. That's the nature of man. God has never condemned the use of blood in medical procedures and the Watchtower Society is just plain wrong in its interpretations that such use is "eating" blood. It's a case of teaching as doctrine the precepts of men and they lack any moral or ecclesiastical authority to speak for God, unless, of course, they've actually spoken to Him.

9

Cult?

by kurtbethel in

http://www.sendspace.com/file/lf2z1a.

.

cult!.

Cold Steel

Yeah, it bothers me that JWs let themselves and their children die over a gross misinterpretations of scripture. Virtually every other religion on Earth knows that receiving blood transfusions are entirely different than eating blood, just as having statues and worshiping graven images are entirely different. Eating blood does no one any good, but it's been shown that receiving blood transfusions have saved many.

It's a tragic, stupid, pedestrian interpretation, but some churches don't allow for any medical intervention. This makes it a backwards religion, but hardly a cult. This religion requires a certain mindset, a certain psychology, but like the Shakers and other weird little groups, it eventually will catch up with itself.

9

Cult?

by kurtbethel in

http://www.sendspace.com/file/lf2z1a.

.

cult!.

Cold Steel

You know, as oddball as the beliefs are, and as unlikely the claims of the organization to represent God, they're really no different from many other churches. It all goes back to the saying, "You pays your money and you takes your choices." Witnesses have a problem bridging logic from God to them, but that doesn't make them a cult. It seems that everyone who finds anyone else to be narrow minded or opinionated a cult.

Well, in reality, Christianity was a cult. The educated Romans and Jews saw it as little more, though the Jews really saw ancient Christianity as sort of a far out part of Judaism. In the same sense Bahá'í is an offshoot of Islam, Christianity was considered an offshoot of Judaism. Everything (or almost everything) comes out of something else. People aren't forced to stay, they're not isolated from the world, they can go to the library and read whatever they want, even if their parents or overseers don't want them to. Judging from the number of people jumping ship, I'd say that Jehovah's Witnesses are in danger of being overtaken.

In my view, they waste their votes (votes that could help make the world better) and they become guilty what many evangelicals become guilty of -- of giving up and saying it's all over. They may be even a bit odd in some respects; but they're not any more or less culty than many other religions or philosophies in the world today. If one visits their website, one will quickly notice there is nothing...nothing at all...outlining the JW belief of its own legitimacy. There's no church history. No...how we came to be stories.

The only time the JWs ever irritated me was when my grandmother was very old. They'd come in and tell her that when she died, she was just going to slip into slumber and decay until Jehovah-God called her forth from the grave. They made her worry that my late grandfather might not be saved at all and that, in fact, most wouldn't make it. She had nightmares of dying and was worried about losing her family and seeing them destroyed. Of course the Witnesses explained that we must be willing to suffer our all for Jehovah, even our families and loved ones. While other religions teach that people will one day be reunited with their families and friends through the mercy and atonement of Jesus Christ, being a JW is about choosing between them and Jehovah; and if you choose them, you're not worthy. Again, although this is weird and it's a cruel theology, it doesn't make it a cult in the Jim Jones sense of the word. Just sayin....

13

What Are the GREATEST SINS One Can Commit in the WT World?

by Cold Steel in

one of the greatest, i'll bet, is apostasy.. but what about others?

what is someone has committed adultery?

or even murder?

Cold Steel

Wait, I think I'm beginning to see!

God reestablishes His church as a tract publishing company and doesn't tell anyone, even the leaders.

Then he comes and burns everyone but them!

But then...wouldn't that be...evil?

13

What Are the GREATEST SINS One Can Commit in the WT World?

by Cold Steel in

one of the greatest, i'll bet, is apostasy.. but what about others?

what is someone has committed adultery?

or even murder?

Cold Steel

Has anyone asked them how they know that the WTS is God's organization?

Wouldn't God have said something to someone? Wouldn't it, like, be in the Bible? I have never seen such arrogance in my life, and I think that's why the JW organization intrigues me. Do they go to the door and say: "Hi, we represent Jehovah and...."

"How do you know you represent Jehovah? Did He tell you?"

"No, but the leaders of His organization have told us and...."

"Oh, He told your leaders?"

"No, you're interrupting, which is rude...."

"Well, did Jesus start your organization?"

"No, but Jehovah did, and we are His witnesses. See? It says right here: 'You are my witnesses, says Jehovah.'"

"Well, doesn't my Bible say the same thing?"

"Aha! No it doesn't! No, your Bible says, 'Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord.' See? It doesn't have the word Jehovah in it. Ours does."

"But Jehovah's just a tetragrammaton and doesn't have an actual pronuciation. For one thing, the vowels are missing."

I don't know. Maybe they can make a case. If so, it really hasn't impressed a lot of people. Didn't Jesus say many people would come claiming to be Him or His representatives? I would think they would have to have a better pitch.

I read a book years ago by a woman who left the Witnesses and I recall thinking that the leaders made a lot of claims they couldn't back up. She was punished, the local leaders were outraged. Members whispered behind her back and then began making rude comments to her face. Then they tried to get her to come back. The book raised more questions than it answered. I could never figure out whence the sense of legitimacy came from.

It would be too bad if Witnesses lost their faith in religion entirely. Do most of them join other churches when they leave or do they just reject religion altogether? What if a sinner simply said, "Hey, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and just start living a better life," and didn't confess? He or she wouldn't go to hell, nor would I think God would destroy them for not confessing. What of these people on YouTube who point a camera at themselves and then begins cursing the Holy Spirit? (Someone on Bill Mahar's Religulous did that.) Isn't it possible that Jesus was speaking of something else, like denying the type of personal revelation that God gave Peter? I'm just curious if anyone's been denied reentry into the church for that particular sin.

13

What Are the GREATEST SINS One Can Commit in the WT World?

by Cold Steel in

one of the greatest, i'll bet, is apostasy.. but what about others?

what is someone has committed adultery?

or even murder?

Cold Steel

One of the greatest, I'll bet, is apostasy.

But what about others? What is someone has committed adultery? Or even murder? If someone murdered someone twenty years ago, could they receive baptism? And what if someone committed adultery with a high church official or his wife? If an official heard someone admit to a heinous crime committed years ago (and which has no statute of limitations), would he be required to report it to law enforcement?

What if someone committed apostasy, started a website for former members and then wanted to suddenly return?

If I recall correctly, the wages of sin is death, and those who fight Jehovah won't be tossed into a fiery pit, but simply uncreated and become nothing. Is that correct? And if so, what of Jesus' saying that it would be better is such people had never been born or had the proverbial millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea?

What of those who lived and died without hearing the gospel? Or what of aborted infants, or infants who died at birth? Are these saved through the grace of Christ? And if apostasy is considered a great sin, is it the "unforgiveable" sin mentioned in scripture? Are people ever declared to be guilty of such in this world? If so, by whom?

Since I've never been to a Kingdom Hall meeting, is the Lord's Supper observed there? I understand this sacrament is limited only to the 144,000 heavenly class, and that this class has pretty much been exhausted. How is one supposed to know if one is of the heavenly or earthly class? It seems I was told years ago that John the Baptist was not deemed to be of the heavenly class because Jesus said, "He who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he." Most Christians believe this was a statement of Jesus saying that he, Jesus, who because of taking the sins of the world upon himself, thus had the least claim on the Kingdom of Heaven; yet he was greater than John the Baptist. Jesus always equated the least with the greatest, and I can't believe the JW theologians missed what I see as an obvious interpretation. But then, I guess I'm just not spirit led.